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Chat preview: Too many bars in Midtown?

by Brandon Darnell, published on October 9, 2012 at 5:08 PM

Storyline: Local Business

Community Tags abc alcohol bar business chat eats and drinks food foon rhee george raya j street k street liquor midtown nightlife opinion restaurant sac press live

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Does Midtown have an overconcentration of bars? It’s an issue that has divided readers on The Sacramento Press since we launched four years ago.

Sacramento Bee Associate Editor Foon Rhee wrote about the issue on Sunday, and we’ll have him and Midtown resident George Raya on Sac Press Live Wednesday to discuss it.

The video chat window will be live streamed here on Wednesday at noon:

Some longtime residents say the Midtown area is overrun with drinking establishments, and it’s destroying their quality of life. Others cite the walkability of the district – and the amount of bars and restaurants – as reasons to live nearby.

When new restaurants apply for alcohol licenses, they often face stiff opposition from neighbors, who attempt to have conditions placed on them. Those conditions sometimes include limiting hours the patios can be open, requiring security guards and limiting hours when alcohol can be sold.

For some restaurants, restrictions have outlasted the business – as was the case when Red Lotus went into the space formerly occupied by G.V. Hurley’s.

Red Lotus has since closed and been replaced by Red Rabbit Kitchen & Bar. Located on the 2700 block of J Street, it is joined by a series of restaurants and bars, including BarWest Burgers & Wings, Centro Cocina Mexicana, Blue Cue and Harlow’s.

The issue also came up in a Sac Press Live chat in August with local historian William Burg. In a response to a comment on Sac Press that he was a “NIMBY” for raising concerns about what he sees as the negative effect of bars in Midtown, he said his issue is not that the bars are there, but that they don’t show enough concern for residents.

"I have this opinion that these places can be run reasonably and with respect for the neighborhoods around them, and I expect that of them," he said.

Do you think there are too many bars in Midtown? What would you like to see our guests discuss? Post a question in the conversation below.

To find out about our chats or learn about ones you can participate in, follow The Sacramento Press on Google+.

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Conversation Express your views, debate, and be heard with those in your area closest to the issue.

Paul Cox

October 9, 2012 | 5:17 PM

I know it's an increase in bars. Also it is a concentrations of bars serving a larger variety of patrons who tend to have conflicts after the bars let out. I can't tell you the number of testosterone-laden conversations and "whoo-ahh's!!!" I've heard outside of my apt which is a block away from Bar West, and that's just the patrons on the way into the bars, on their way out is an entirely different story. I'm starting to wonder if increasing amounts of security should be a requirement during most bars busier hours. Bar West and Red Rabbit seem to be increasing security, but I'm not sure about other bars in the area.

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CCC

October 9, 2012 | 6:20 PM

a block from j street and you are bummed about noise? come on, no one likes it but you cannot pretend to control it (security guards are not the answer) anymore than you can leaf blowers or dumpsters being emptied at 3:30 a.m. too many bars or too little tolerance from those who dislike the idea of "testosterone-laden" folks in their space? maybe we could replace them with those you find more acceptable? anything else you feel the need to control? parking? gas prices? such a dead horse.

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William Burg

October 9, 2012 | 8:34 PM

Yes, you can control leaf blowers and dumpsters being emptied at 3:30 AM--using basically the same methods. Both are violations of city codes, and if businesses engage in that activity, a proactive citizen sick of being awakened in the middle of the night can apply considerable pressure, especially if there are other neighbors willing to join in the effort.

Simply put, if your business can't be profitable and still follow the rules, I have no sympathy for you. There are plenty of businesses who can follow the rules and get along with neighbors--I'll patronize them instead, and encourage others to do the same.

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Paul Cox

October 10, 2012 | 9:33 AM

lol, wow, you are angry CCC. I was not indicating that the noise was unbearable, more that it should be kept to the bar area. But maybe respect for residents in an area is a ridiculous notion. I'd agree with William, and also add that a nice mix of security or some other forms of control on those going to the bar might serve to establish a balance, so that laws aren't too onerous on patrons and businesses, but that residents are also considered in the process.

On a side note, some of the conversations and "testosterone-laden" ridiculousness, are hilarious. But when it gets to the point that it's disturbing me even with my windows shut and tv on. Or when it gets to the point of fights on the street, as has happened at least twice that I know of, or gunplay about a block away...then maybe some measures need to be considered to deal with the repercussions of alcohol and testosterone and stupidity.

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ric

October 10, 2012 | 1:14 AM

Location is great and density is not a problem Wm Burg has it right - as long as they comply with laws, where's the beef ?? I too wish there was more than just bars - I like Ginger Elizabeths but other than food and drinks and dance and entertainment - most folks shop the internet. I do not understand the naysayers in midtown - they have personal issues with drinking - my neighbors grief is not the noise but parking congestion - and yet I see parking lots at offices that cannot be used at night or are fenced off - what is that about ?? (e.g. 21st and N Streets) There are occassional rowdys but that could happen anytime - anywhere - go to a city council meeting.

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Brandon Darnell

October 10, 2012 | 10:13 AM

Hi Ric,

To answer your question about the parking lots, the city is working with small businesses that don't need their parking lots on a program to open them for the nightlife crowd. Here is a link to an article I wrote about that a while back:

http://www.sacramentopress.com/headline/72744/Parking_plans_for_central_city_after_pilot_program_cut

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jhar

October 10, 2012 | 8:31 AM

I"m in my late 20's and have lived in Midtown since the day I turned 18. That being said, I would argue that to be a successful and vibrant city, we should be actively working to attract young families and young professionals to take residence in the city center. This serves both to increase your tax base, and sharpen community value. A sense of connection and recreational amenities are recognized as key factors for young families and professionals when selecting where to live, and why i've stayed in Midtown for over 10 years. Also, given it's proximity to CSUS - it is inevitable that Midtown would serve as a playground for other young 20-somethings who may have relocated for their education. The solution is to provide them with destinations that will encourage them to spend, so they pay the taxes necessary for the city to keep the lights on. Shuttering bars and other night time destinations would only encourage our residents to flee to another zip code to spend their tax dollars. Stupid stupid stupid.

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jhar

edited on October 10, 2012 | 8:34 AM

Additionally, there is a reason why the bars and clubs are so packed on Friday and Saturday nights. THEY'RE POPULAR WITH THE CITY'S RESIDENTS! If you want a quiet, boring, cookie-cutter neighborhood - move to Roseville or Elk Grove.

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William Burg

edited on October 10, 2012 | 12:20 PM

Attracting young families depends on having amenities, but KEEPING young families depends on a measure of public safety. I moved to Midtown in my early twenties and am still here 19 years later (then, as now, the arts/music/nightlife element is an important factor, along with walkability, communty and aesthetic beauty), but the traditional pattern for many young Midtowners was that you moved to Midtown when you're single, but when you get married and have kids you move to the suburbs because Midtown isn't safe. That trend has started to reverse itself--I see more families with young kids moving into the central city. But if the neighborhood isn't safe, or even if that perception of safety is insufficient, those families will move out. I don't want them to move out--I want them to enjoy what the city has to offer, and want their kids to enjoy it too.

This isn't a strict either/or comparison, between the stereotypical "boring, cookie-cutter suburb" and a downtown with no rules and no limits on behavior. We can have a sociable, livable city neighborhood where businesses are expected to be part of their community--and act like it. Bars and clubs that don't make any effort to regulate behavior, or gloss over neighborhood problems, just results in shuttering of local businesses that aren't bars or clubs but serve neighborhood needs--and shutters nearby housing in an otherwise highly desirable neighborhood because the neighborhoods are no longer livable.

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William Burg

October 10, 2012 | 12:15 PM

For those who are interested, Midtown Neighborhood Association's monthly board meeting is tonight, Wednesday the 10th of October at 6 PM, at the Chateau on Capitol Avenue (27th and Capitol, entrance on 27th.) This month's meeting features presentations by two new businesses--the owner of Anatolian Table, a highly-rated Turkish restaurant in Rocklin who wants to open a location at the old Hina's Tea location across from Golden Bear, and Sean Derfield, who wants to open a beer garden in a couple of repurposed shipping containers on the vacant lot just east of Golden Bear at 24th and K.

We will also hear from Sacramento PD about the gunfight that happened at 20th and P Street (near Old Tavern and within a block of half a dozen other Midtown bars) that resulted in serious injury, and a few bullet holes in nearby buildings. This is the second gunfight in a month near a central city bar--and unlike last month's shooting at 28th and J, there is no nearby gas station to blame.

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